Hi there.

In the news this week, it seems that Lloyds TSB, the UK bank, are the target of possible legal action from their union and also potential action from customers, due to their decision to transfer sensitive personal account information to India.

Obviously this raises concerns for other UK organisations outsourcing or planning to outsource overseas. It seems that a fundamental part of the objection seems to stem from concerns over the 'safety' and 'security' of the personal data.

What do you think? As a consumer, would you be happy to have personal and often very confidential information passed around the world on the back of corporate whims? As a professional, do you think public concern is justified?

An issue to watch closely, I feel...

John

As a consumer its not just data, I have huge ethical concerns about the loss of call centre jobs overseas. They feed onto other areas of the economy, provide stabilty for families etc.
As a consumer I have huge ethical concerns about this site and the fact that it doesnt have an ethical policy on the part it is playing in losing British jobs.
Why do people cheer the English, Scottish football or cricket team but failing to follow that through in other areas of their life? How terrible we lost the game to India but its only sport, how terrible we lost the jobs (mine and yours) to India but they're only jobs and I didnt play any part in it.

I value the autonomy and ethics that the consumer has, business including this site and the many consultants who lurk on it ("only here to help") have yet to exhibit the same qualities.

Passionate about it? You betcha but at least I'm doing something about it and not sitting on the fence. What's your employer doing about retaining British jobs? Have you even questioned them on it? Afraid to speak out? Why? Your job might be on the line, when are you gonna defend it? When its too late? As an employee you are expected to act ethically cant you at least ask the same in return?

I bank with the Coop, chose them years ago for their ethical stance. So I asked them will you be outsourcing your operations overseas? "No they says, we have an ethical policy on it." They are one of the few growing banks in the UK.

What are you doing as a consumer and contributor to this site? The unions have woken up to it, will you?

"I bank with the Coop, chose them years ago for their ethical stance. So I asked them will you be outsourcing your operations overseas? "No they says, we have an ethical policy on it." They are one of the few growing banks in the UK."

I too use them, via their Smile internet banking. However, getting to your point, I do agree as a UK resident but as this is an international site I have to aim to provide a degree of balance and detachment as we have many members whose livelihoods depend on the work that UK.PLC outsources in their direction.

From an ethical standpoint, I would like to see jobs originating in the UK and the UK doing as well as it can in all ways. However, in a global economy the reality is that doing business in the UK has to many become decreasingly attractive with regard to cost-per-seat, minimum wage, union involvement, location overheads and so on. Outsourcing and offshoring is an option because some of these costs can be minimised. Big business, as we all know, cares less about its employees and their familes, and more about the bottom line.

Whilst I don't advocate outsourcing to oversees locations in preference to maintaining operations in situ, I have to recognise that my own opinion is merely one of many here, and I have to try to be balanced in my pseudo-role of the guy in charge. After all, if this or any community starts showing heavy bias, it can alienate its members, or at best ceases to be as inclusive as it could be.

"business including this site and the many consultants who lurk on it ("only here to help") have yet to exhibit the same qualities."

A little unfair; as described above, whilst we could champion UK business to the exclusion of other economies, we don't do so as we are international regardless of our evolved demographic (which is still predominantly UK).

Some interesting thoughts, though, and I thank you for them.

John

By simply acknowledging the issue then refusing to do anything we fail to address the issue. This issue here is not one about balance or offending people. I am sure we all acknowledge that you cant please everyone on this topic. But its about balance and inactivity, its about ethics. Euthanasia and the death penalty arent about balance, they are about stances and positions.
Doing nothing when you have a mechanism to do something places all parties in an invidious position. Inactivity itself will not resolve the issue and might even hasten it.

[[Gets up on soapbox]] Thats why I urge every Lloyds TSB customer to sign the online petition now http://www.saveukjobs.com/petition.php then forward it to your entire call centre, friends and colleagues.

Now here's the conundrum .......once you've signed it, ask youself why if you are prepared to sign this, you arent prepared to do challenge anything closer to home.



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If the creator had a purpose in equipping us with a neck, he surely meant us to stick it out - Arthur Koestler

Again, interesting stuff. So, hypothetically speaking, if I were to give you the green light to use this 'mechanism to do something' (i.e. CCV), what would you do?

This community was always intended to be directed in the direction that its members desire, so here is your opportunity...

John

One of the main reasons for outsourcing is the cost savings. The general public want cheaper products and services and the shareholders want to maintain their dividends. As we all know the largest cost to a company is it's wage bill. So in the ever increasing global market in which we work how do we meet all these criteria? Pay our UK employees less? Incerease our prices and as such possibly loose custom? Also as quite a lot of off shore positions are with sub-contractors are we just shifting the blame. Not meaning to sound as if sitting on fence but at the end of the day the choice is with the consumer. We provide them with options and the ones that don't fit with Jo Public's perception will be the ones that fail.

Thanks John,

I wasn't addressing your comments directly but using them as a platform to address everyone's abilities and 'mechanisms to do something.' - ie. getting off backsides, thinking about their position! However, to give some consideration to your points.

1. Realise that having an ethical viewpoint is not the same as moderating. I concede you cant make every contributor agree to your viewpoint but that doesn't mean you cant have a policy. I may disagree with the amount of paper that the Coop wastes but they still have a policy on it and they continue to express it without the loss of my business. In fact I respect the fact that they even have a position on it, we both agree the Coop attract some business simply due to their ethical stance.
Then I'd read up on Machiavelli's "The Prince", like The Prince you are running a community. That's a very different proposition from running a company and requires a different kind of morality . The ruler can create whatever policy he/she like even if not all his subjects agree with it, even if they pay taxes (subscriptions).

Realise that as a community ruler you can influence others simply by taking a stance e.g.. magazines who sit idly by with creating lengthy editorials bemoaning the demise of the British call centre industry yet take no active stance in promoting it despite having a British origin and customer base. In short become a force for change.You may even attract others more members. You'll certainly cause a stir and attract publicity should you choose.

2. Create an ethical policy publish it and apply it. If you are stuck on what to include contact some ethical organisations/consultants. There are advisors out there, here's a couple of starting points ; http://www.freedomtocare.org/ or http://www.new-academy.ac.uk/ why not try searching under 'corporate responsibility'

3. Publish the reasons why you have developed an ethical policy. e.g.

" The owners of CCV (the company) believes it has an obligation to perpetuate call centre industry best practice and the jobs within in. CCV is a British company paying British taxes to the British Government (indeed it may have even been set up with British funding). Given the nature of the contributions within this community coupled with the historical development of CCV and recent occurrences in the UK call centre industry CCV has decided to support attempts to retain jobs within the UK and grow the British Call Centre industry."


Specifically on this issue;
4. In this instance contact the trade union concerned and ask what CCV can do to help and offer what you can realistically deliver. I note they don't have a talking/discussion board - you do.
5. Promote and use CCV as a beacon and actively create pages that advise others of what they can do to protect themselves and educate others.
6. Give the petition some prominence and actively promote it.
7. Write positive statements when issues contradict your ethical policy e.g. the UK has to many become decreasingly attractive with regard to cost-per-seat, minimum wage, union involvement, location overheads - >>union involvement may be no bad thing given the careless attitude of big business you mention. Indeed the unions may very well secure better redundancy packages had they not been in place in the UK. What about the superior quality issues that the UK has above India and increasingly are being cited as reasons for retention of UK business. Maturity of our industry. Quality of training and development staff. Work life balance. Benefits etc.
8 . The union concerned suggest "Assisting us with the collection of signatures to our petition Writing to your MP to express your opposition to Lloyds TSB’s plans. Getting friends or family members who are customers to sign the LTU petition "
9. The union also suggest "Making sure your friends and colleagues understand the key issues" - CCV could do this by creating a fixed web page outlining the issues (there are many people on this site who could contribute (and might want to)). At present this argument/ issue is lost amongst never-ending threads, a simple stable page with clear arguments would help educate.
10. Encourage the generally public to sign a generic petition championed by CCV with easy sign up on CCV, then present it to MP's and use it as a lobbying tool. - Promote and use CCV as a beacon.

Inevitably this will change the emphasis of CCV and may deter contribitions you may even have to decide on whether you will allow some kind of contributions, I cant see that far ahead ultimately thats a decision for you.


Although the loss of British jobs is perhaps the biggest single issue in UK call centres at the mo there are other issues and it is unfortunate that you have chosen to work in a community in such turmoil. I dont see any American, Indian or Asia community websites wanting to amalgamate with CCV for the good of the worldwide industry, CCV stand alone in that lofty goal. However change is inevitable and the future of any community needs to be measured against what the is community achieving at present.

I re-read the homepage aims and objectives, I grant you that a limited amount of sharing and friendliness is achieved on the technology side but mostly I see a community of lead harvesting and one way traffic. Thats why the prolific early subscribers to CCV drifted away. The grabbing of useful information and then nothing is given back, ok maybe thats because the West has the knowledge already but by the same token that doesnt mean the community should harm its Western subjects. That's not a sustainable model for a community indeed its not a community at all, its a soup kitchen. Just how flexible can moderation be in a community like this before it becomes 'unprincipled'?

You asked. I cogitated.

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To update Machiavelli (when ruling a community) "In practical terms one needs to be flexible, adapting moral principles to suit particular situations". What we do should depend on our awareness of the likely actions and attitudes of those around us. If everyone else were good, there would be no problem - but they are not, and so we remain naively innocent at our own peril."

Wow, that was a lengthy post. Didn't have a chance to get back on it yesterday so here goes. I'll take it in snippets and try to address some of the things you talk about.

First up: in principle, I agree with most of what you say. I don't want to see UK jobs lost to overseas organisations but at the same time I can't argue against the business logic which predicates such loss. The fact is that many factors add up to make the UK an increasingly expensive place to locate service sector jobs relative to other countries. Our taxation system doesn't entice organisations to invest, our average employee cost is higher than many and as a small country there is increased competition for land and therefore business rents and the like may be significantly higher.

That said, if I felt that I (as 'helmsman' of this community 'ship') could steer us in such a way as to make a difference then I would. However, this is no dictatorship, and such a stance has to be taken only after consultation with the members.

So, if anyone wishes to express an opinion on this matter, please add it to this topic.

If you don't, I can hardly take your opinion into consideration. One of these days I'll code up the ability to setup a voting system in the style of the canned community software that lesser boards use ;)

Anyway, back to the point. You write:

"...mostly I see a community of lead harvesting and one way traffic. Thats why the prolific early subscribers to CCV drifted away"

Sadly, there is and will always be a degree of one way traffic in any public forum. I shall shortly be setting up a community dedicated to the running and evolution of online communities, and will discuss things like the contribution-quality cycle and so on in there. However, I've not yet had time to set this up and so I'll tackle this point head on, here, now. Keeping a community 'on-track' is a little like herding cats. Everyone comes here with different weltanschauungen and motives. As a communuity developer, it is important to try to create a community that can either meet the majority of expectation or cater for a minority but in a very specific way. In other words, breadth- or depth-first. CallCentreVoice is breadth-first, but with a seam of impartiality and mutual co-operation which underpins all that is done and said.

Your point about the 'prolific early subscribers' drifting away isn't necessarily so. Looking at the logs I see a few notable names whose contributions have tailed off, but that's perhaps equally attributable to their own personal circumstances as much as any failing of this community. After all, people change jobs or roles regularly, and an early 'technical' subscriber from mid-2001 might well have moved into management by now, or perhaps into an entirely different career. It happens. Granted, there will be some whose contributions tail off due to dissatisfaction with some of the things that we do or allow to be done here, but I'd fight the CCV corner and suggest that we're probably better than most in this regard.

"CCV is a British company paying British taxes to the British Government (indeed it may have even been set up with British funding)"

CCV is a British company (or, rather, has a British company which oversees its interests, though CCV predates the formation of that company). CCV has never had any funding other than that which its creators invested in it. No loans, no grants, nothing. We're still around despite operating on a frugal budget because we chose to be independent and we chose to be non-commercial in the greater sense. Advertising covers the bulk of the operating expenses, and that's a trade-off that was necessary to continue offering this site to the world at large. Without blowing my own trumpet, you have CCV today because I personally spent man-months developing the software and supporting the infrastructure. Heck, until recently the site was running on two home-made servers which I built with my own two hands. In a nutshell, we're not your normal dot com. (As an aside, it amazes me to see the money that even moderately bigger websites burn through. Excessive cash churn is almost entirely unnecessary to a point; if we had a budget even 1/1000 of that of your average .com we could afford to advertise and take on staff. However, until the cash fairy comes we survive by word-of-mouth and by the kind unpaid assistance of the moderating members.

What this means is that CCV has received precisely NO assistance from anyone other than its own people, and doesn't then feel obligated to defend the UK industry. It chooses to champion it, but is under no obligation. In fact, given that the largest source of income for the operation of this community comes from an American organisation, following your implication we should be championing the US call centre industry.

"I dont see any American, Indian or Asia community websites wanting to amalgamate with CCV for the good of the worldwide industry, CCV stand alone in that lofty goal. However change is inevitable and the future of any community needs to be measured against what the is community achieving at present."

This is very true. We stand alone, and unaided. We would welcome productive alliances with other community websites, but we would be picky about who we work with as we do not want to dilute the good work that every member has contributed toward, and in any case most of the 'other' communities have ulterior motives and hidden affiliations with commercial organisations whose interfering would not be conducive to our 'lofty goal'. Change is, as you say, inevitable, but I put it to you that we achieve more than almost any other call centre or customer service community out there. By all means disagree but do back up your stance.

"That's not a sustainable model for a community indeed its not a community at all, its a soup kitchen. Just how flexible can moderation be in a community like this before it becomes 'unprincipled'?"

That's a good question. I am always open to suggestions.

John

>>but at the same time I can't argue against the business logic which predicates such loss.

I too understand the business logic but I disagree with it on community grounds Your 'weltanschauungen' here isn't focussed on your role, as leader of the community you are required to focus on the community needs not the business arguments. I'll use an example, my local Residents Association has massive supermarket being build next to a small street. They all understand the business argument, convenience, job creation, choice etc but as a community they aren't interested in that business case, the Chairman of the Residents Association focuses on residents needs, i.e. the massive height and bulk of the building dominating and overbearing the residents cottages, the traffic it'll bring and the loss of the local butcher and greengrocer down the road. You see my point?... you are not required to wear a business head on this issue but a community rulers head and about the jobs being lost at the local greengrocers who's owners live next door to you. You are required to act in the communities interests and wishes and not predicate upon the business needs, were you the leader of the local chamber of commerce then that'd be different.

>>However, this is no dictatorship, and such a stance has to be taken only after consultation with the members

Somewhat misinterpreted my point there, is a difference between a dictator and a ruler. I never said anything about dictators I was referring to the Prince and his community. Now the Prince rules his community as a Princedom and is usually benevolent and makes decisions for and on behalf of the community as circumstances dictate. Thinks of the good of the people and all that. Doesn't have to consult the entire population but I grant you would be wise to consult at least some.

Somewhere along the line here you established a democracy, now I didn't read anything about that when I signed up and I haven't seen any democratic votes of the entire populace taking place. What I have seen is a ruler censoring postings without a vote. This isn't democracy, I didn't elect this moderator. I think this utopian thinking lacks clarity of thought. This is clearly a Princedom, we cannot change the leadership even if we disagree with him/her and even if we (the subjects) hurt each other (read lose jobs). And if the subjects continue to hurt one another mortally then what is the moral duty upon the Prince to save his subjects, even if the subjects choose to say nothing?
No one might respond and the problem would still exist until the population were extinguished. i.e. British call centres and British members leave, net result CCV loses.

My point is you might as well start thinking about working from Bangalore for CallCentreVoice India.

>>Keeping a community 'on-track' is a little like herding cats.
Now who's dictating? You cant herd on one hand and be democratic on the other. Communities define their own moralities and stances. For instance some US states have democratically adopted the death penalty, in the UK another democracy has democratically opposed it. In a democracy the electorate define the morals its not the job of the elcted leaders to 'keep them on tract' - morally or otherwise. A few hundred years ago in the UK the death penalty was imposed (read Princedom). Now from a current UK perspective this seems bizarre but an American might find it quite enlightened thinking for the Prince to have had such foresight - same outcome different political system. This is very hazy logic please read some philosophy, please develope an awareness of how communities actually behave not how you like them to behave. Your assumptions do not hold up, even in a democracy where there is massive freedom you cant steer or develop things in the way you'd like. Philiosphy, history and other community based organisations echo this throughout the centuries. The notion of "a contribution-quality cycle" is absurd, if I've paid my residents association subscription I'm as much entitled to voice my opinion at the AGM as anyone else, even if I've never attended any other events, even if I've only got one days subscription. The 'quality' or frequency of may contributions is of no consequence and ought not to be measured. Needless to say Residents Associations are democracies.

>>CallCentreVoice is breadth-first, but with a seam of impartiality and mutual co-operation which underpins all that is done and said.
Not so, read some books on philosophy, Kant, Machiavelli. Impartiality depends on your moral perspective eg. look at the 9/11 from a US and Al Quaeda perspective, both have valid viewpoints according their own morals, look at Israel. As regards cooperation then there is an assumption that all cooperation is benevolent - again not so. Perhaps the analogy of running a school here is appropriate - the kids are fighting, some dont want to join in. What you gonna do hold a vote even though your electorate arent intersted in voting they're simply kids interested in having fun? Its clearly not appropriate, a stance is taken and the morality is defined. The Prince again, a dictator? - No. Its for their own good and the long term survival of the school.

>>, but I'd fight the CCV corner and suggest that we're probably better than most in this regard -please back up your stance as well. Exit Surveys? Can anyone actually unsubscribe from CCV?


than almost any other call centre or customer service community out there.

Kinda depends how you measure it..
http://www.callcentrevoice.com/topic.asp?forumid=1&threadid=4774&page=1&jump#14903 - Lead harvesting, loss of community involvement, never heard of again
http://www.callcentrevoice.com/topic.asp?forumid=1&threadid=4765&page=1&jump#14881
http://www.callcentrevoice.com/topic.asp?forumid=1&threadid=4774&page=1&jump#14887

>>That's a good question.
And one which you must answer not us. What will you do if you don't get any suggestions? You are doing a Blair on us, I say again evasion of these issues is not a sustainable option.

John, thanks for the debate and allowing it to happen I guess many sites would probably censure anyone who criticises them. You have my thanks and admiration for allowing it to occur. Please read my comments with a smile and they are spoken softly and not shouted. But be ready with a response from the many in this community (Norwich Union and the like) who leave once their UK call centre is closed.

Others might not contribute due to apathy and boredom with the debate. Thats fair enough, its also how supermarkets get built.

Cheers

Some interesting arguments, and without commenting on them all at this point in time, I'd like to take your 'prince' analogy and look at things from that angle.

In essence if I am 'a prince' of this community, which is a 'princedom', then it would stand to reason that much of what you have written falls into place. However, my intention is not that of 'ruling' this community; though by default I may have found myself in the position of 'prince' I would hope to behave and operate more as 'spokesman' insofar as my role here is to represent the wishes of this community at large rather than dictate them. Reflection, not enforcement.

People come here of their own free will. True, we currently don't have any automated facility to 'resign' or 'unsubscribe' from the site - though in practice I do this manually via SQL script for those rare individuals who do wish to 'resign' for whatever reason. From memory they number less than 10 over the course of 6500+ members and 3 and a bit years. As is most certainly the case, if people don't like what we do here (as a community at large) then they are equally free to exercise their right not to visit. Think of this site as a little like a club - one can join, or choose not to join; once in, one can participate actively or less actively, and one should not feel bound to remain a member if they do not wish to. Clubs need organisation lest there be chaos, and I have become defacto spokesperson/commodore/organiser/kitty-holder/whatever. That goes with the territory.

Now, leaving aside for a second the notion of whether or not we should officially oppose the migration of roles and work from the UK to other countries (and that's a big aside as it's central to this topic), I would be delighted if someone took over the mantle of the daily administration of this site. I don't get paid for any of this - it's all my gift, so to speak - and in fact running a site like this can be an enormous time-sink, but for the kind assistance of a small number of keen and trustworthy moderators (including Dave & Zoe) who do this also without payment. Believe me, if I could compensate the moderators I would, in a second, but the reality is that this site is only possible through what I'm going to call benevolent co-operation. It's what this site is all about.

IF the members of this site felt that they wished this site to change direction, I would be happy to pass on the torch for matters politic to someone fresh and new. If you want to become our campaign spokesperson for such things, you only have to ask.

Anyway, aside from that, the bigger question is whether this site should act in an organised manner to oppose this migration of work overseas. I would appreciate others' thoughts on this. If we do decide to organise and oppose, I would be honoured if you would work with me to make it effective. Are you up for it?

John

As a moderator here I feel I need to stand up for my side :-)

We (on a daily basis) have to make decisions that WILL (no if’s or
buts) upset people.

The three (well actually two) posts you’ve cited are recent and looking
at the posters history they are all recent joins, only time will tell if they continue
to be productive members or just as you put it ‘lead harvesters’

As a matter of course I read every post that goes up and yes I do arbiterally decide
what stays and goes (The Secret Police to your Medici / Machiavelli analogy), however
I have guidelines to work to. I delete / quarantine any post that has advertising content also any follow up that is a blatant advert.
The two posts you have cited seem to fall into the info request bracket,
I’ve already culled out the ad’s that appeared. Every poster who has a post removed is invited to
ask for it to be re-instated after reading the AD policay. No-one has.

You say you didn’t vote for me (or any of us) as moderators. Sorry!

Back to the main subject matter.

The emphasis is on a Global site in a Global world. The fact we are UK based id purely coincidental and to a certain extent irrelevant.

I think my brother may be correct in his post above.

Do you check

The Label on a tin of food to see if it was produced in the UK?

The Label on the last Shirt you bought?

Or your Trainers?

Or your Car?

As with anything before the is the death again of all British jobs ( Remember we were the equivalent of Dickensian Chimney Sweeps boys 3 years ago! ).
It’s the end of the world again!

So where are we apart from at the mercy of Market forces? I dunno!

So not apathy or boredom.

HTH

DaveA

Oh and both of you IT’S PRINCIPALITY not Princedom

"Oh and both of you IT’S PRINCIPALITY not Princedom"

That's us told. I did think that 'Princedom' sounded a bit... wrong!

John

There are some pretty long submissions here and I dont profess to having had the time to read them completely, but for my tuppence worth this is a global forum and we should welcome comments and questions from anyone in the call centre industry(or even outside of it).

If we exclude one part of the world then we would also have to exclude the rest, so that would be good bye to the American and Oceanic contributors. No, 'tis better to remain impartial, building barriers only creates conflict. You cannot un-invent the global community, this is no place for a luddite mentality.

>>Do you check The Label on a tin of food to see if it was produced in the UK? The Label on the last Shirt you bought?
Or your Trainers? Or your Car?

No, its not practical this is covered by this philosophical argument I already stated. "In practical terms one needs to be flexible, adapting moral principles to suit particular situations. What we do should depend on our awareness of the likely actions and attitudes of those around us. "

I am flexible, like most people my ethical stance changes on the situation. I have now started to visit the local greengrocer because it keeps him in a job and I realise that perhaps it is more important to the local economy given he runs and sustains an autonomous local business instead of some poorly paid supermarket job with limited autonomy and money that leaves my local economy. But no I don't carry this through to every area of my life, I don't always give to beggars, I don't give to every charity that knocks my door as deserving as they may be. That's ethics and I'm truly sorry this debate has to be so lengthy and focus on such fundamental reasons as the 'raison d'etre' of the site but it does come down to why was it formed and how does it (the community) operate when under threat, thus my need to examine those topics. Philosophers have pondered over the years how society and groups and human beings interact, nothing has changed just because its now virtual.There are many organisations who have created forums for members to swap information that haven't envisaged that they also created a very simple quick and easy method for the members to contact them, publish their thoughts and demand action. Thus the very mechanism of a community website places members in an invidious position with the ruler unwilling to arbitrate because his/her hands are tied by the organisation and its policies. Its like having the AGM every day of the week. Neither does inactivity itself resolve issues sometimes it even hastens them - i.e.. loss of members.

If I'm now a club member (are you absolutely sure what we are here, you've changed the set up again! ) then I respectfully demand action from the committee to oppose the migration of British jobs and I demand the committee do it now and act within a certain timeframe and not prevaricate any longer. Again John your thinking is hazy, you cant be all things to all men and you cant now say the committee has decided that we think we should ask him to champion it. You the committee elected themselves (without the members input) but now you want to delegate contentious issues. Anyway I've already stated when asked by the committee first off what I want the committee members themselves to do but now they ask me to do it. Is the club democratic or is it a Principality?(Thanks Dave). I could even propose a motion that we re-elect the committee (who weren't elected in the first place) and on the grounds of not making a decision when asked and replace them. Also we didn't ask them to put this out to vote, that's what they are there for. Again you are sitting on the fence. If you are a committee and no one responds, my question still remains and demands an answer but as I continue to maintain your thinking is hazy on this and you aint a committee you are a ruler, you can kick people out of your kingdom, you did establish the kingdom and you are almighty. The people did not elect you be their spokesperson that is your modus operandi and not your role/function even though you have some commendable virtues :-)

I'm gonna shut up for a while because I think I've worked hard enough, the points have been made and people and yourselves can make of them what they will. I'm not tired of it I'm just trying to behave reasonably (and I do have other things going on). Even if nothing comes of this at least I've given you food for thought for your new 'community owners/rulers/Prince's forum' - that makes me feel good, at least I stood up and was counted, at the very least I gave it some thought and had a position and I DID DO SOMETHING by educating others and discussing it.

I'll even do it again http://www.saveukjobs.com/petition.php then forward it to your entire call centre, friends and colleagues.

Essentially the argument is about morals and ethics and like I say they change according to the situation.

What can we do? It wont work? "Essentially Joe public decide. We are at the mercy of Market Forces." Well for my money that's the talk of the 'also rans'. If you wanna make a difference in the world if you want to feel alive you do something.

We opposed the supermarket at a 5 day planning appeal and won, it wont be built.

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To ask "What should I do?" implies "What is life for? - Mel Thompson

The problem with Julian's argument (which I would have answered had it not beaten me by one second) is that there is no such thing as a 'global community'. The problem with international ethics is that there is no single global ideology, religion or political system. An international ethic needs to be based therefore on those things that can be shown to be good and right for all people in all places and at all times - and that is difficult to establish. As we are see in our industry. What is seen as an international peacekeeping force from one perspective might be felt to be an unwelcome invasion of foreign troops from another's. Being impartial in an International context does nothing and moves nothing on ie; Bosnia, United Nations, call centres.

(voice softens) I think people are often afraid of taking a decision and feel they have to do what's 'right', its seen as virtuous to be 'impartial'. And thats my point, there is no 'right' in this situation. You the indiviual define whats right. The world isnt equal, life isnt equal, we can work to remove suffering and promote happiness but ultimately human beings and their motives are all fallible. In this regard the lofty aspirational thinking of Julian and John is outstriped by human abilities, you can continue to promote impartiality on this site but the jobs will keep drifting, the conflict was there in the first place, no one is promoting it. We hate conflict and try and run from it, we can try and crave absolutes that justify our decisions for all time, but its just an illusion.

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If you want a guarantee, buy a toaster - Clint Eastwood

Getting heavy, the problem we have and it is an animal trait that we as intelligent homosapiens should aspire to rise above is our innate need to protect our tribe.

In this case the tribe happens to be Great Britain's callcentre industry, on the one hand this is noble as it helps to deliver one our of basic needs - funds to buy food/clothing/habitat to live in (Maslow - Hierarchy of Needs). One the other hand it is also the root of conflict - "you have what I need" (or perceive I need).

History is littered with examples of the tribal need to look after number one and in the past you could argue that we didnt know better, we didnt know the long term effects of taking over someone's land, forcing opinions upon others, the cost of pollution not only to ourselves but our neighbours and the list goes on.

In the 21st century, we know that if country "A" pumps out pollution then anyone downwind of that country shares in the consequences sometimes it is only the neighbours who lose out. We know that the Earth is not flat and that what we have today is the product of millions of years of evolution and that soon many of the things we take for granted will become scarce. Within a few years, maybe even the next two, the UK will become dependant on "johnny foreigner" for our gas - huge pipelines from Siberia, giant ships delivering liquified gas to our shores.

Where is all this leading - that it is about time that we started looking at the world as it is, a grain of sand floating in a vast sea that is the universe. We need to treat our neighbours with respect, we need them and they need us.

Off soapbox now, back to earning crust to pay for a chinese meal later this week.

I bet if I had time to read this it would be really interesting!:-)

Jason

Production follows the lowest cost...it alway has and it always will. Work has migrated from higher cost countries to lower cost environment; In the 1950's a german camera was cheaper than a similar one made in the US or UK, japanese products were synonomus with 'low quality' well into the seventies. Today you can buy a car chaeper from Korea than Japan or Germany. This trend has hit natural resources ( where they are mined at the lowest cost per net unit) and manufacturing...services is next and its happening today.

I would suggest that the challenge before us is to look at Germany, Japan, Taiwan etc. who have moved from low cost to delivering a higher quality that consumers are willing to pay for. Sure we will lose jobs off-shore at the low quality end of the spectrum and fighing this is a war we cannot win. But we can keep and even grow jobs at the higher end of the range if we can delivery better service with higher quality and if customers will pay it.

I guess the difference between Globalization and Globalisation is how you spell it.

Hope this adds to the debate. if I can be of further assistance please feel free to email me at ctaylor@thetaylorreachgroup.com


Colin

One week on and I thought I'd take stock of whats been achieved by throwing this out to the readership. Nothing.

Both Julian and Colin sum up the current situation and underlying reasons (we are all well of these) but fail to provide any answers as to what they will do about it. Thats the question that needs answering, not what causes this, but what are you prepared to do about it?

There are many more issues beyond supply and demand. Globilisation is not all good as this posting today testifies "callers are made to work even on holidays and they have the same pressure of achieving the respective targets. If they stop dialing they will loose their job(s)." No unions, no support, we in the West wont stand for it yet we expect other nations to tolerate such basic breaches of employment law. Julian advocates respect but where is the respect in the example above and by eating at the Chinese where is the respect shown to the owner of the British Chip Shop?

This issue will not drift away how ever many opinions you seek. Ultimately you the individual define what's right.

All I ask is every time you publish a link or a news item about the loss of British jobs you think about this debate and whether/if you played any part in it, I have to every time I turn down a consultancy job on the sub-continent.

1) Improve the UK proposition to keep contact centre business in the UK:

- Reduce operational costs by providing competent, highly trained, motivated, customer service. A process is always cheaper to do once than twice! People will pay a higher rate for better quality - ask Aston Martin.
- Provide competitive remuneration and career development. Attrition is often an overwhelming factor in high operational costs and poor quality.
- Meet and exceed customer expectations. Customers will tolerate cheap poor quality far better than they will tolerate expensive poor quality; offer a better quality alternative to overseas bucket shops.
- etc

2) Improve the UK proposition to bring contact centre business to the UK:

- If you can establish the above, then surely it must be possible to go the next step. People do not travel to the Maldives from all over the world because it is the cheapest winter sun; people travel to the Maldives because they provide the best example of their type.

This is obviously simplified (I have occassional work to do for my £) but the principal is obvious. The UK benefits immensely from our global economy and should maximise the advantages of being at the leading edge of the industry. Far better to save the UK industry through creating a competitive industry than by taking a U.S. Steel approach.

I find it interesting that those attacking the "ethics" of outsourcing seem to have missed the impact the work going overseas has had on developing world economies. We are forever hearing how people in the UK hate contact centre work, feel underpaid and over stressed, and would apparently rather be doing anything else; on the other hand the industry has created huge financial injections through jobs and investment into areas of poverty, has driven forward infrastructure in areas that were hardly top priority for data networks etc, and is not based on 10 year old kids sowing trainers! So if you want to be ethical then get out and start pushing BPO out into africa, eastern europe, and those countries that need it the most!