Hmmmm...

Merriam-Webster Dictionary of Law states community: an interacting population of various kinds of individuals in a common location

So if, as he is clearly concerned, the number of >>>consultants who lurk on it ("only here to help") now outnumbers the number of concerned mystic CC gurus (we are a dying breed) then perhaps it is us who should stand aside. Clearly the community created in CCV is crying out for further depolarisation of the CC industry and a continued rapid growth in overseas BPO.

Merriam-Webster Dictionary of Law states Soup Kitchen: an establishment dispensing minimum dietary essentials to the needy

Since the moderators in their finite (yet immense) wisdom cull all adds, blatant lead generation, etc from the posts; and since the lead generation is clearly the "soup & bread" of the middle men; and since the "minimum dietary essentials" for the rest of us appears to be a soapbox; if CCV is a soup kitchen then we gurus are standing in line.

So John, turns out you are both a community (for parasites) and a soap soup kitchen for bitter gurus! None the less we all appreciate your efforts to keep us all amused!

Firstly, I appreciate and understand his passion for his point of view and respect him for stating it and then explaining his thinking for those of us that might have missed something.

Second, let me disclose the fact that I work for a Canadian provincial government advising them on legislation in other jurisdictions (US) that threaten call centre jobs. So I believe I am qualified to wade into this bog.

There are two main themes to this issue as I see it; Globalization (the flow of work of all kinds to sources of lower cost production) and Protectionism (the attempt to hold back Globalization through the use of legislated tariffs and consumer action protests).

As I have stated in a previous post, Globalization is inevitable and it is nothing new (ask the mailboy who lost his job when a courier could do it cheaper). Manufacturing was long the primary target for globalization, but increasingly services are under pressure. Ask yourself why any manufacturing exists in western Europe or North America today and the answer is because they produce superior products. Quality is king! To survive this challenge we must as Sun Tze said 'know the terrain we will be fighting on' (that of a global world) and 'know the enemy better than our friends' (understand what is driving the enemy; be it a UK bank that may want to oursource or an Indian BPO provider---in both cases it is globalization).

Protectionism is a double edged sword. You keep jobs and opportunity from me and I will do the same to you. John Kerry the democratic nominee for president in the US championed 'Right to Know' legislation early in the presidential campaign, the AFL-CIO has also lobbied in every state for the same type of legislation that would require all call centres to disclose their location and if outside of the US require that the call be routed back to be handled by a US agent. This was in response to the belief that good 'american' jobs were leaving in droves for India and the Philipinnes. Studies backed up this 'job errosion. Then the Wall Street Journal published an article that cited government (Dep't of Labor) statistics that proved that the US gained a net increase in jobs from the 'offending' coutries. The arguement is still there and state governments have passed prohibitions on the state government outsourcing outside of the country but it is no loonger a 'cause celeb'.

A protectionist approach in the UK...to protect UK call center jobs could result in Tata, Sykes, Sitel and a couple of airlines from pulling their call centre from the UK back to their home countries...how can this help the cause?

'Splendid Isolationalism' didn't work 100 years ago and for my money it won't work today. If for no other reason than it is hard to tell the players without a program...who owns the banks, the auto makers etc. and where are they based? How would they react if they were penalized in their home country by protectionist activities?

A true story...There was a council meeting in upstate New York about 15 years ago where the elected officials were debating what earth moving equipment to purchase. They had narrowed the field to two bids; one from John Deere and one from Komatsu Industries. One councilman argued long and passionately about the importance of 'buying american' and protecting US jobs, he argued for the John Deere bid. His passion carried the day and John Deere won the bid and provided the earth moving equipment. The factory that made the equipment was in Indonesia and the Komatsu factory in Tennesse was without the contract.

Free advice is worth what you pay for it and speaking as I who may have been called 'a lurker' or 'lead harvester' I subscribe to more than 20 similar communities to CCV around the globe and I believe CCV is the class of the field and strikes the right balance between educational information and commercialization. John I think you have done it right and suggest you continue to walk the tightrope. Keep up the good work (it must be good as CCV is the only one I pay to support).


As always feel free to contact me directly at ctaylor@thetaylorreachgroup.com if I can be of any further assistance.

Colin

Madness?

Nothing mad about it. Perfectly valid and recognised point of view. Thank goodness people are finally thinking about the issue and what they prefer to do about it. That's my whole point. You cant duck this issue and so much better to talk about and disclose these things rather than do nothing and blame it on some wider uncontrollable force that we aren't part of.

To those who disagree with my point of view, fair enough at least you have a point of view and that's what its about.

John I disagree with you fundamentally and yes I do understand the business argument however many times you state it and quote historical precedence but this isn't about manufacturing jobs with immovable plant and not all globalisation is good for the outsourced state - Look at Bhopal, MacDonald's etc ultimately the world becomes one homogenous ubiquitous bland lump. Is that such a good thing for the richness of humanity?

I note with interest you provide strategic and tactical services ranging from Customer Communications strategy to Outsourcing/Offshoring. It goes without saying that CCV is a valuable resource for you this is amplified by the number of responses you make to potential outsourcers looking for help.

However speaking personally I couldn't work for a Government and defend the outcome of this posting
http://www.callcentrevoice.com/topic.asp?forumid=1&threadid=4765&page=1&jump#14881.

This one sales close to the wind.
http://www.callcentrevoice.com/topic.asp?forumid=8&threadid=4668&page=1&jump#14730

I do detect a certain pattern in the history your postings (its easy to view their history) and a propensity to target any sniff of potential business - your email address ever present - one could argue that this is self interest - another form of protectionism. As an outsourcer gaining valuable information from this site you would say that. I live and work in Britain you don't, I have friends who have lost jobs to India, from the very companies you quote, outsourced by conglomerates. I actively turn down business overseas, I do DO SOMETHING to look after my countrymen on this site. Nothing wrong with that.

Life as we all know isn't about business, ethics transcend business, we should all 'Love thy neighbour' but how far do you go??

This thread demonstrates the value and in my opinion an underlying purpose of CCV or any similar community...to engage in discussion and debate surrounding issues of common interest to the community. This thread has been viewed more than 400 times, so there are many on sidelines viewing the discussion. This is of value to those participating and those watching from the sidelines.

A few comments regarding your last post, I would agree that call centres are different than manufacturing plants and I would also agree that globalization is not good for everyone. But I do not see it as renting the fabric of human society, nor do I believe that it will move us to the state of the Borg Collective (prepare to be assimilated) .

I do not speak in my posts gratuitously about my company's services; if I did these posts would be pulled (and rightly so). But suffice to say, that I believe and many who I have exchanged posts with have told me that I have assisted them in their efforts. I believe that those who have knowledge and experience have an obligation to assist those who are seeking help, is that not why we are all here? The fact that I also offer services should not limit my ability to provide free advice which I do freely and frequently.

My role with the provincial government, since you have tabled it again, is to provide them with counsel and advice on the potential impact of protectionist legislation and how best to respond to protect the thousands of call centre jobs that could be at stake. I take this responsibility very seriously. I have worked in internal call centres, outsourced call centres and now am a consultant. I have built numerous call centres and created employment for thousands of people. I have always felt a high degree of responsibility for the well being of the staff that I have employed. I do not see any conflict with my point of view regarding globalization and this responsibility. On the contrary I feel the responsibility obligates me to understand, appreciate and provide advice opposite the macro trend of globalization.

"I do detect a certain pattern in the history your postings (its easy to view their history) and a propensity to target any sniff of potential business - your email address ever present - one could argue that this is self interest"

I stand by all of my posts and yes I differentiate between the ones I respond to and the ones I do not, but so does everyone else. So perhaps it is self interest, but to a degree that is the motivation of all of us. I include my email in my posts, so people prefer to have private rather than public discussions. Could some of these discussions potentially lead to a business opportunity for me? Possibly, but that would be a small minority of the cases. I have corresponded with many people and have provided advice, strategy, guidance, forms, templates etc. for free. And why have I done so, to help them with their challenges because you are right Life isn't all about business.

I have enjoyed this discussion and appreciate both the passion you feel for the issue and the courage of your convictions. I would not counsel you to do anything but what you are doing since you feel so strongly about this topic. I hope we can agree to disagree on this topic and still shared our knowledge and experience with each other in the future and on other topics.

As always if I can be of any further assistance or if you would like to continue this discussion off-line you can reach me at ctaylor@thetaylorreachgroup.com

Colin

Of course we can sir.

(I would include a .gif of shaking hands but I just cant get to grips with the hypertext)

As an aside, I plan to add in image upload features for members at some point soon... so, your hypertext woes may be a thing of the past...

John

It's Monday lunchtime and I've been at another wedding this weekend. Still not ad enough coffee andas such having problems following. Ethically and morally my standpoint is to keep jobs in UK. From a fiscl point of view in some areas it makes sense to outsource. Outsourcing can be within the UK or offshore.How about increasing the visability of UK outsourcing companies.

Nick,

Here here,

I quite agree with both points. The UK outsourcing area is
actually under represented on this forum.

I'm even more surprised you can string two words together after
Saturday night.

DaveA

We are alive and well and servicing the needs of our clients and their customers irrespective of where they deem fit to place them.

Eamon

And too busy answering contacts to spend time on these forums hehe.

I think a major reason for under representation will be that outsourcers by nature are very secretive:

1. We live under the brands of our clients, you dont get "Hi, I'm John from Capitex representing PowerMeglamaniacs".
2. Business in our environment is based on cost and reputation. Discussing our operation or any problems we have in forums like this may be akin to giving away the crown jewels.

Still from time to time we can enter into the general banter on the site, this topic in particular got me, though I have to admit an interest - one ethnicity and secondly Vertex does have an Indian operation. However, I still stand by my comments that we do need to look at the wider needs of the human populous (Green hat back on for a second).

Julian,

Its all very well standing by your comments but are you doing anything about them? Thats what standing by them means.

Empty well meaning rhetoric is easy, actions take a lot more. What are you presently doing to achieve your well meaning goals and what are you prepared to do in future??

- In the UK around 1 in 5 people live under the definition of "poverty", which based on 2003 population counts equates to roughly 12 million people

- In India around 1 in 3 people live under the definition of "poverty", which equates to roughly 346.5 million people

- Poverty in th UK is defined as an income of 60% or below of the national median... currently £117 p/w for a single person

- A newly qualified doctor in India can expect to earn aroun £40 p/w

- Websters defines "ethics" as

Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English ethik, from Middle French ethique, from Latin ethice, from Greek EthikE, from Ethikos
1 plural but singular or plural in construction : the discipline dealing with what is good and bad and with moral duty and obligation
2 a : a set of moral principles or values b : a theory or system of moral values (the present-day materialistic ethic) c plural but singular or plural in construction : the principles of conduct governing an individual or a group (professional ethics) d : a guiding philosophy

- Websters defines "poverty" as

Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: Middle English poverte, from Old French poverté, from Latin paupertat-, paupertas, from pauper poor -- more at POOR
1 a : the state of one who lacks a usual or socially acceptable amount of money or material possessions b : renunciation as a member of a religious order of the right as an individual to own property
2 : SCARCITY, DEARTH
3 a : debility due to malnutrition b : lack of fertility
synonyms POVERTY, INDIGENCE, PENURY, WANT, DESTITUTION mean the state of one with insufficient resources. POVERTY may cover a range from extreme want of necessities to an absence of material comforts (the extreme poverty of the slum dwellers). INDIGENCE implies seriously straitened circumstances (the indigence of her years as a graduate student). PENURY suggests a cramping or oppressive lack of money (a catastrophic illness that condemned them to years of penury). WANT and DESTITUTION imply extreme poverty that threatens life itself through starvation or exposure (lived in a perpetual state of want) (the widespread destitution in countries beset by famine).

"CLOSED ACCOUNT": WHAT ARE YOU DOING ABOUT THE GENUINE ISSUES OF POVERTY IN A GLOBAL ECONOMY?!? IF YOU HAVE A PERSONAL PRINCIPLE THEN GREAT, EVERYONE SHOULD! BUT DO NOT THROW AROUND HIGH MORAL PRINCIPLES BASED ON A MICRO VIEW OFF THE WORLD THAT NICELY SUPPORTS YOUR OWN PERSONAL CHOICE! WE ALL COULD DO MORE, BUT ONLY WE ARE IN FULL POSSESSION OF THE FACTS OF OUR PERSONAL SITUATION.

Julian

Completely agree, though in forums run by the CCA Outsourcers do get a chance to get together to discuss common issues (off-shoring being one) in an environment where no-one needs to give away the crown jewels.

Closed:

You have issues with this subject which will not be resolved on this website, unless you're planning on the call-centre workers of the UK marching on Parliment, which they can do of course provided they have cleared it with their team leader and used the correct break code for the adherence report.

E

Thanks guys, its been very informative and persuasive to listen to all the counter arguments and I am of the mind that my involvement will now make no difference. As luck would have it yesterday I was presented with the opportunity to work in India, the direct result being the loss and transference of 150 UK jobs.
Although my heart still says I shouldnt accept this your arguments have assuaged my conscience.

If I didnt have the commitments I have in the UK I would jump at the chance to work in India. I can imagine it would be hardwork and everything but I bet its very rewarding.

I'd like to thank all the posters for their comments on this subject. Having been a victim of outsourcing myself, I can appreciate the sensitive nature of this discussion. More importantly, I value the freedom that this forum gives to varied, and sometimes conflicting opinions. I live and work in the States, so I depend on CCV to provide me with a global perspective as it pertains to call centers. I also depend on CCV to maintain an open platform that is conducive to productive and informative discussion. Making a public announcement that the CCV is anti-outsourcing jeopardizes it's ability to do so.

CCV members have been accused of sitting on the fence. Please stay on the fence.

regards...

Sorry I mispoke...CCV administrators, not members. Members can play about of course =)

Did you see what I did there?

Paul,

With my moderators hat on I'd like to say thanks for the vote of confidence.

It's actully quite hard to have an opinion and have to keep things balanced.

As a note I've never deleted a post that wasn't an advert
(By by God they vanish quick) and the only time I've ever edited posts was to fix / create HTML links.[1]

Thanks again.

DaveA



[1] With the one exception of correcting not just a horrendous typo
but a horrendous typo'd sentance that I'm sure Simon Baker didn't mean :-)
In that case I took the liberty of editing it to what it was supposed to mean
rather than what it said, hopefully before too many people got offended.

>>CCV members have been accused of sitting on the fence. Please stay on the fence.

Have to disagree Paul, sitting on the fence in this instance (and many others in life - including the planning example I mention above) is simply apathy, wanting others to make the decision for you, waiting for a lead from the herd. The arguments have all been aired, its up to you as an individual to make a decision.

The one thing I've learnt about having an opinion is at least you know where you stand and this makes it easy to know how to act and what actions to take as a result. Simply 'sitting on the fence' means you have no idea where you stand or how to react. What are you waiting for ? A decision to be made for you? Clearly in this instance it will be (and perhaps already has). You can stop these things but as we see by the discussions above people seem to think they can not have any effect, it doesnt matter, its all decided, we are powerless lost in the IVR of life. Thats exactly the kind of thinking that costs jobs and builds supermarkets.

I am pleased I have made a decision, sure it could be wrong but at least I have a direction.