I've noticed a creeping tendency for employers to employ staff with the proviso that - "initial training will not be paid." Is this normal? It seems particularly prevalent in the call centre industry and is it ethical, profitable or simple business common sense?
Have you yourself or your company ever been involved?

Let me state clearly that I don't encourage it. We pay for training of our agents. However I have heard of unpaid training in areas where there are a lot of call centers (such as Atlanta). They said 'There are a lot of agents that just go from center to center being trained (and paid) without ever getting on the phone.'
My answer would be that you just check their resume. If they spent only a few weeks or a month at each center, you shouldn't hire them!

Marianne

I agree to Marianne here. what happens is that most of the agents hop around like Kangaroo's (no offense to any aussies here !) from center to center looking for a raise. Specifically here in India, now that the Callcenter industry is growing every day... it hard to see agents who think in terms of Career growth.. they're all so bound by the monetary gains that they jump jobs. The blame has to be put on call centers who hire such agents by offering them an hike in salary, and not giving an importance to their stability. They want the best agents and are willing to pay high wages, but do not realize that they are messing up the market.

Cheers !!
Swapnil

Hi
Talking about agents jumping different centers for monetary gains, Correct, but WHY is the question. No offence but had you been an agent in the Indian call Center, what would you do. This experience to most of the agents were given by the Call Centers initially. They work for more than 6 months to 1 year but nothing happens, no raise in salary or a promotion which is expected. Result is demotivation. They look for an oppurtunity and the other center recognizes the talent and pays well and better with different atmosphere to work in. Thats it , who spends more buys more.
Initially it was he centers exploiting the agents and now its time for the agents , probebly down the line itll again be the centers. This is the way businesses are run. Why would a center say no to a good agent with skills.
Again an ex. One of the centers initially recruited around 2000 agents and the recruitments are not ending. They did that for about an year and more. Now after an year they have raised the salary of the individuals at all levels by 80 to 100 %(Only for the individuals who have completed an year). This is the first time that i have seen this happening with all employees in the call center industry. The message is clear. No attrition. They have the lowest attrition%.
So you see my friends it is not only spending money, what counts is how you spend it.
These guys gave a raise to probebly 300 employees but that was a very less price to retain another 2600. They are smart.They have actually taken care of the biggest problems, attrition rate and motivation.
i know there will be lot mor to this....

regards
Nitin

I guess I can add some value to this conversation :

Over here in India Callcenter is a booming industry and most of the workforce is fairly young say (22-35 yrs) now most of them are college graduates 20% are even MBA's!! and they actually do not see any future in callcenter industry and belive in reaping the most in the shortest possible time taht's on of the reason as to why attritions rate are so higher but till now I have not come across any callcenter which do not pay its agents during the training period.

Regards,
Ravi

Yeah, I have heard of some call centres who do this. But I dont approve of it. Agents need to be paid during training.

The recrutiment process just needs to be air tight to ensure that the agents being hired are appropriate for the process to avoid anytraining drop out or flunkees.

And if attrition is the issue than I agree with Marianne. Look at the resumes and do a thorough reference check before hiring.

Thanks
Navin

There are call centers which do not pay agents during the training period. In fact the latest trend I came across was organisations making the agents pay for at least 50% of their training cost!!! I know of 2 such call centers in Mumbai.

And i don't think its a bad idea at all. And why not...attrition starts from the training period itself. If the agents bear a part of their training cost probably they'll think seriously before joining and before quitting.

I would blame it all on the centres/companies in India for this attrition rate.

Not paying these guys during the training is absolute exploitation.I am strictly against it.This is like starting thing on the wrong foot and also giving negative vibes to the agents.The company shoule know what they are doing and how to handle these things instead of doing these silly things like not paying to the agents.

Why I blame it to the companies is because I have seen the centres picking up experienced agents from other centres by paying them 1000-1500 more and not even asking for the relieving letter-----this is bloddy so unethical.What trend are they setting up for these young kids-----how can u blame these kids for this.

I am sure it can be set right if Management of these centres start thinking positive and create a healthy competition within this Industry.But pls.pay these guys during the Training----------they r ur employees from minute one they join ur company!!!

Anjan.

Unpaid training is unethical (call centre moralists claim) but not illegal (call centre owners claim)

In India there is no labour law that states you need to pay while the employee is in training period preceding his actual resumption of duties/responsibilities. The majority of the opinions expressed here relate to ethics.Human history is replete with examples wherein commercial opportunism scored over ethical/moral principles.Keep ethical part away and the centres are not doing anything illegal.

The inspiration/ solution to this issue is in the Apperentice Act( I am sure a similar act exists in England too as Indian acts are drafted by Englishmen), wherein a person after successfully undergone a certification course in a trade works as an apperentice to gain experience in that trade as a trainee. During that period he is entitled to a stipend.If all call centre professionals feel that their industry is a trade and need special skills (thats what majority of the participants in this forum claim it is)to perform duties in a call centre, let them unite and force the local governments to bring in legislations to that effect.

Instead of ruling out any payment,there is no harm in paying the person a nominal stipend that covers his transportation and out of pocket expenses. This is neither unethical nor illegal. If call centres are paid on performance why not employees be paid only when they perform?

Vedula

Hi There

My feelings on this are that is comes across very victorian and old world to try and get away without paying your employees/agents for training
Lets take india for example we see the documentaries and see the bad living condidions out there and the hardships families have to face
Unless your agents are realy abusing the training they are giving and are call centre hopping why in gods name are you trying to take food off there plates is it not bad enough for them out there without having any further money taken from them
From a moral persepective a person working for a company feels like giving more back to that company in work effort when they know the company backs them 100% all the way and does not skimp

Kind Regards

John Nutley

John,

Let me correct u here.All the call centres which are there in India are all in metro cities.85-90% of these agents comes from middle class or rich families.Trust me they use this money as their pocket money and not to feed their parents or sisters and brothers.
Still getting back to the issue of non payment during training is absolutely rubbish concept and dear Vedula its not by thinking on moral grounds but talking about practical implecations on these kids.If u go back and chk my earlier posting on this topic, u will understand what I am talking about.Its a direct relation to agents performance,their dedication towards the company and so on.Other than money, lets not forget one of the reason why BPO is happening in India is the low attrition rate and we can improve on this by getting these agents dedicated towards the company.

Anjan.

Hi john,
Building up a perception on the basis of Documentries i think is not t fair idea. rather India happens to be the 5th most powerful country in the world with the second largest population in the world.
Secondly rural areas and the living you are talking about is everywhere in every country, its just that the traditions in india are a wee bit different. Not that its my country, the fact is that when it comes to technology i.e IT India has the strongest foothold.
the maximum labour with muti tasking skills can be found nowhere than India.
basically rich in resources and less on cash. Cash too can be taken care of only if the politicians open their pockets to poor and put the right money in the right place. I bet itll break even in 2 years.:)
Guess im dreaming.
take care guys,
Its always a good feeling to be here.
John maybe you should visit India sometime buddy.
:)
cheers
nitin

Well said Mr.Jolly.

Straight to the point.

Cheers,

Anjan.

What about those companies (they tend to be small marketing companies) who's training consisists of shoving a script in front of you and telling you to make 'x' sales in a day/week. Basically you learn youself as you go along, if you dont make the grade you are out very quickly. The company wins as it spends next to no time recruiting/developing you and only the strong and adaptable surviive. Shouldnt recruitment and training be more than this or should it be up to the employee to deliver and pronto?

I missed this earlier - interesting perspective Vedula. Let my put some current UK thinking and legislation to you.

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>>>Unpaid training is unethical (call centre moralists claim) but not illegal (call centre owners claim)

Not so in the UK and many other countires that have labour laws and a national minimum wage, staff should be paid whilst training.

>>>>Keep ethical part away and the centres are not doing anything illegal.

See point above there are international labour laws, India has ratified many of standards of the International Labour Organisation and was one of its earliest members.

>>>>The inspiration/ solution to this issue is in the Apperentice Act( I am sure a similar act exists in England too as Indian acts are drafted by Englishmen), wherein a person after successfully undergone a certification course in a

The UK has NVQ's however these are government sponsored (and highly regulated)the wages and training standards are part of the whole employment deal not specifically a reduction in pay for inital training.


>>Instead of ruling out any payment,there is no harm in paying the person a nominal stipend that covers his transportation and out of pocket expenses. This is neither unethical nor illegal.

Yes it is, see answers above, if the person makes a sale their sale is worth the same to your organisation as an experienced employee's sale. The value of the sale to the company is the same, it isnt any less because he/she may or may not have have less skills. Thats what performance is based on, results not skill levels.

I totally agree...there are call centres in India which believe that training means shoving a piece of paper they call a "script" in front of the marketers and leave them to learn on their own.The rule that follows after this "training" is basically perform or perish.These centres need to keep in mind that these agents,most of whom are freshers,have a lot to learn.They have no idea about soft skills or accent training.Knowing theculture of the nation they call is also important.Only then can they be successful telemarketers.They just need to be given a fair chance.

Hi All,

Good that everyone agrees that a person should be paid during training. Closed commented that a sale by a trainee is still a sale. The unpaid training period I was referring to was the training period wherein no live call is made/handled.

The point I was trying to make was that a business decision to pay or not to pay is driven by what is legally avoidable and what is legally payable. Every company wants to avoid tax (it is termed tax planning) and not evade tax which is illegal.

If law states that you pay for training period then it is acceptable. If there is a way by which you can avoid full payment prior to the employee becoming productive and is not illegal then it is an ethical issue.

How many of you endorse the idea that a new hire be paid an allowance for having attended an interview at his own cost and got selected?(Local candidates responding to an advertsement and getting selected)

In India if you attend a call centre interview you will get a free movie ticket and if you are selected you get a mobile phone free.

God save Indian call centre(Voice) Industry..

Vedula

This is an unacceptable practice, regardless of the country.

Personally, would not do biz with any company that conducted
itself in such a manner.

Thanks,
Steve Howell
showell@telegenisys.com
925.825.1122

I have recently worked with a small outsource call centre and the have taken the approach of paying for new advisors training, once they have been with the company for 4/6 weeks.

This has ensured that the company has had a return on their investment in training the new advisors.

From a customer service representative’s perspective, I have to say that not paying for training is disgusting. The perception your putting forward to your staff surely can’t promote a freethinking and happy workplace. Its ironic this question falls within a forum, which asks for reasons for high turnover.

As for staff who jump from job to job purely for a “two week paid training period” I have to ask if you have anything to validate this statement? Perhaps your workplace conditions weren’t up to that particular staff member’s standards/requirements (that’s right people, your agents have standards too, shock horror) and they decided to leave as apposed to your theory of making a decision purely on financial grounds.

I for one know that I’d never approach a company for employment if they expected me to attend unpaid training, any logic used to justify this from a management perspective frankly won’t cut it with your agents, and your starting on the back foot before you get the agent on the phone, and once having attended unpaid training, you actually expect the staff member to retain information? A bit rich me thinks.

Cheers
Asiri “The Customer Service Rep” Senaratne